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Wait, I’m the Boss?!? A Guide for New Managers, with Peter Economy [Episode 778]

INC Magazine management columnist and author of the new book “Wait, I’m the Boss: The Essential Guide for New Managers to Succeed from Day One,” Peter Economy joins me to talk about why leaders can’t wait on their company to train and enable them to be a good manager.

Episode Transcript

Andy Paul: Peter welcome to the show.

Peter Economy: Hey, great to be here, Andy. Thanks so much.

Andy Paul: So where are you joining us from? Where are you? Sheltering in place?

Peter Economy: I am in the San Diego area. It’s sunny. It’s about 89 degrees. We’re toasting out here

Andy Paul: You must be inland.

Peter Economy: We are. Yeah, we’re about probably 20 miles from the ocean.

Andy Paul: Okay. Yeah. It’s like two different worlds and people don’t know San Diego here either found them. When I moved there. Initially you made the decision, you either serve a coastal person or more of a desert person and it never, the Twain shall meet almost

Peter Economy: yeah, we tried the devil desert experiment. It didn’t work. So we’re heading back to the coast.

Andy Paul: Oh, so you were on the coast originally.

Peter Economy: Yeah. I lived in, uh, initially in Pacific beach area of San Diego and then, then the Hoya for like 20, almost 20 years. So yeah,

Andy Paul: So you tried the try, the inland and now you’re back. Okay.

Peter Economy: we’re going back.

Andy Paul: Going back. All right. Well, walk in the shot. We’re going to talk about, um, yeah. New managers, frontline managers, and the lessons they need to learn. Got a book out called wait, I’m the boss, the essential guide for new managers to succeed from day one, um, which is quite quite a challenge to, uh, to do that.

Cause you know, we find, and you talk about this as, yeah, at least in sales, when frontline managers just don’t get trained. And so they’re really thrown into the, the deep end of the pool is, Hey, you know what? I have to get X number of members of your team to perform to a certain level, but you’ve got to make this happen without any training.

Peter Economy: Yeah, it’s really a difficult situation. I mean, you can imagine, um, how many people, and this is really one of the greatest challenges for any new manager is that you’ve been great at whatever it was. You did, what you, you know, what your job is. So if you’re a great salesperson, you are the top sales person on your team.

And so all of a sudden the sales manager says, Hey, I’m going to tap you to be my assistant. I want you to become a assistant sales manager or something like that. And start, start becoming a manager, but without any sort of training without anything, but just sort of the osmosis of watching someone else be a manager and the problem.

One of the problems with that is, is that many managers just aren’t any good. Um, in fact, you know, Gallup, Gallup, Gallup has found that, yeah, it’s a big shocker. Gallup has found that bad bosses are the number one reason why employees quit their jobs. So there’s a lot of them out there. And if you’re learning from a bad boss, if your model for becoming a manager is a bad model, then chances are, you may be a bad manager yourself.

So yeah, it’s unfortunate that not much training happens, if any training at all. And unfortunately these habits become very deeply grooved and hard to break.

Andy Paul: Well, you have an interesting stat in the book, which was that on average managers get their first leadership training at age 42. Meaning on average, you said about 10 years after they become managers. I mean, this is, I find that, I mean, I shouldn’t be laughing because I don’t want to have to stop wishing that we continue to do this.

I am not laughing. The fact that we ignore managers. Cause yeah, I, I actually had two weeks of, of management training when I went within about a few months of being promoted to manager for the first time and for the next 20 years, 22 years, while I worked for companies before starting my own. None. Right.

And they’re all in management positions, never, ever again, received any one tidbit of management training.

Peter Economy: Yeah. And I’m not sure why, what size company that was, but you know, most.

Andy Paul: sizes.

Peter Economy: Yeah. Most of the largest companies, you know, you’re fortune 500 type companies. They have massive leadership training programs. I mean, they’ll pick you out when you’re young, they’ll say this looks like someone with leadership potential and that puts you on a leadership track and they’ll assign you to different jobs around the world and progressively more responsible leadership positions with training all along the way.

But that’s a pretty rare thing. I mean, that’s the largest companies, most small and medium businesses don’t do anything like that. I think there’s statistics that show around maybe 24 minutes a year at the most that most leaders may get from a small business and even, even less from a medium sized business, maybe 12 minutes a year or something like that.

It’s, it’s, it’s negligible if you’re getting any training at all. So, uh, it’s, it’s a big problem. And unfortunately, many managers, many leaders don’t have the tools. They need to do a good job doing the job they’re supposed to do.

Andy Paul: Well, this is really pervasive and sales and we’ve had conversations with other people about this on the show is that there’s this expectation too, that not just frontline managers, but up and down, the management chain is they must be. An expert on, you know, performance management, leadership, you know, all the attributes you need to, to lead and manage a team to higher levels of performance.

And that’s just too much to ask of one person yet. We’ve had this model ingrained, I mean, on the sales side, on the. The, the level of the sellers themselves, the big trend over the last 10 years is we’ve, we’ve said, look, you know, people need to become much more specialized in specific roles in sales, uh, in this modern environment, which is absolutely appropriate.

And yet on the management side, hasn’t changed one iota.

Peter Economy: Yeah. And, and, and I guess on the, you know, the management side of things, uh, it’s, it’s quite a generalist position. It’s not a real specialization. There’s just so many different things. You’re supposed to be good at everything from hiring to firing to, like you said, performance management, setting goals, motivating a motivating your employees, uh, tracking their performance.

Um, There’s just so many things. And then actually just running your company. I mean, in addition to all the people side of things, you’re supposed to be making sure that the company is operating your department’s operating, that it’s doing the things it’s supposed to do. So just the sheer breadth of what you’re supposed to know as a manager is, is overwhelming for most managers and many of them end up failing as a result.

Andy Paul: Well, you referred to this in the book and it’s other research been out there. I mean, it’s sales, excuse me. Um, I know, gosh, I’m in the Valley. It’s Silicon Valley. I think the average tenure now for, uh, sales managers, like a year and a half.

Peter Economy: Oh, geez. Wow. It just get, they just get ground up.

Andy Paul: Right. Almost exactly right. Right. I mean the high demands, high intensity, and I, my senses from talking to people across the country on the show and so on is that, you know, we’re starting to see that happen in other industries as well. It’s just, the expectations are unreasonable and people said, get, as you said, get chewed up and ground up and spit out.

Peter Economy: yeah.

Andy Paul: it worked for them is huge because there’s no continuity.

Peter Economy: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, but regardless of all that, I mean, you, there is, there, there is a need for someone, you know, a manager to run things there is that need. So how do you get that done? How do you accomplish those different, you know, tasks, those different responsibilities without grinding up the managers.

And I would certainly say that a lot of that has to do with again, training with making sure that you you’re training those, those people in the skills they need, instead of throwing them into the deep end, like you said, which is so often the case, you get thrown into the deep end and see if they swim or not.

Um, why not give them a life preserver? Why don’t you give them a. A life vest that they can wear. So they don’t sink, you know, give them the training. They need to stay afloat.

Andy Paul: But as you pointed out, that’s just not happening. Right. So I think that one of the themes I thought of the book that I took away was that yeah, the, the, um, You really have to self enable yourself, right? I mean, you have to take responsibility that you’re unlike you want to be a manager. You’re not going to, for most cases, other than the large companies, you’re only going to get served lip service to training the managers 24 minutes a year, which is you just envision what that, that is in the sales side.

It’s like, well, yeah, we hire somebody like Peter to come in and. Spend a 40 minutes talking at a sales kickoff meeting. And then we, we say that’s training for the year. Um, you know, with the forgetting curve, people forget 79% of it within 24 hours and it doesn’t help anybody. So you really have to learn how to take responsibility for your own development.

Peter Economy: that’s exactly right. I mean, you can’t say well, just because they’re not training me, I’m going to quit or I’m going to go somewhere else where they’re training me, I think a much better attitude and. Response will be to say, I’m going to, I’m going to empower myself. I’m going to, I am going to train myself.

I’m going to pick up a book like this, or there’s, you know, there’s all sorts of books out there on leadership and management. And you know, obviously in the sales areas to sales management, but you can empower yourself. You can learn this skills yourself. And, and that’s what the book I wrote is, is all about is, is in each of those.

Particular areas where you do need specific skills, recruiting the best people, aligning your people with your culture, um, you know, getting the best out of your people every day of the week. Those kinds of things, you can learn how to do that. You can empower yourself to, to pick up those skills and then apply them in the workplace.

Andy Paul: Yeah. You had four keys to being a better manager, and we’re going to go through some of these, keep an open mind, which that’s all about. Right? You gotta gotta be able to empower yourself. You gotta. Not fall prey to the Dunning Kruger effect, you know, think that you just cause you had some, one success that you’ve learned at all.

Um, take the time to make good decisions and create an empowering culture, which I want to talk about and obviously build and maintain trust. So I thought was interesting. You, you talk about, um, setting goals as a priority. And a lot of people are familiar with setting smart goals, specific, measurable, attainable, relevant time frame, time bound.

You use the words, um, but you say that’s outdated. So what’s, what’s replaced smart goals.

Peter Economy: I’ve got a friend, a colleague, a guy named Adam Creek. He was in the 2008 Olympic team for Canada rowing team and they won gold medal. And Adam’s really thought about this a lot. He’s he’s a big goal setter. I mean, you have to be when you’re an Olympian. And for some reason, I guess you got to get sick as a rower.

So, um, what he’s developed, he’s developed a system that he calls clear goals, and they’re basically updated to the kind of agile world that we’re in now, where you’ve really got to be able to move on a dime and then be more collaborative with the people you work with. So clear goals are clear, stands for collaborative speak of the devil.

Um, they should encourage employees to work collaboratively and in teams. The goals are limited. They should be limited in both scope and duration. They’re emotional. They should tap into the emotion and energy and passion of your people. They should be appreciable. They should be not huge goals that you can’t really accomplish.

They should be broken into smaller goals that are more accomplishable. And as they add up, they become bigger and then they should be refinable. Um, they should have, um, Uh, agility being able to be agile and modified as the situations change around you. So clear goals are what he says, and I think it’s a great approach.

Andy Paul: So. What was the difference between limited and appreciable? Cause they both sound limited. I understand is, you know, one of the key things with goal setting, as people have to feel some sense of achievement along the way in order to build the confidence to keep going. So that’s what I interpret as limited.

Or is that, or is that appreciable?

Peter Economy: well, it’s definitely limited is limited in both scope and duration. So yeah, it’s, it’s not a humongous goal and it’s not going to take, uh, Five years to accomplish, for example. So it’s definitely limited, but appreciable definitely means it’s broken down, um, more, into much smaller chunks that can be accomplished.

Um, they’re similar in a way they probably overlap, but they, but they’re broken down so you can have lots of accomplishments more quickly. So instead of having to wait five years for this big accomplishment, you’re actually accomplishing things maybe every week. Um, you know, we could have weekly goals instead of monthly or, or quarterly or annual goals, so that you feel that sense of accomplishment more often and more quickly

Andy Paul: Right, but also the people that work for you do. And I think this is the thing that first time managers don’t understand is that yeah, we talk about it as you know, you’re only going to succeed. If your people succeed. But the key to getting your people to succeed is that they, you know, you talk about setting clear goals, but also that, that they achieve a sense of confidence and they build a sense of confidence in what they’re doing that builds on self, and they do that through achievement.

So these, this idea of the limits of goals is one that I’m a big advocate for is, you know, what are the milestones? What are the things where people can experience success in what they’re doing? Right.

Peter Economy: It’s.

Andy Paul: they do that, then you can sort of start building and maybe I can give you more responsibility next time or a bigger goal the next time.

But you gotta, you gotta build that and people just doesn’t show up and just encouraging them to do more. It doesn’t, it doesn’t work.

Peter Economy: Yeah, exactly. I mean, um, you’ll overwhelm them and, and that’s not a way to build confidence if they fail. I mean, failure is a part natural part of life and business. And we, we learn when we fail and, and obviously you’ve got to make your work. Place a safe to fail environment where you can fail and learn, but you want those failures to happen fast.

You want them to happen quickly, and you do want people to have the ability to do it, to actually succeed. So give them those small limited goals that they can knock out. Boom, boom, boom, and build that momentum of achievement that makes them feel like they’ve really accomplished something and builds confidence within them.

Andy Paul: Right. One other thing, too, that, that I thought was interesting. A book that, um, and people should read and dig into is, is, and this is, this is a big thing as you’re talking about. A learning organization. And I sort of come at this from two different perspectives. One of which you write about one, you don’t write about so specifically, but, but, um, it’s this idea that you have to serve a structure in order to learn from the experiences that you’re having, that it just, you know, you have to be more disciplined about it, as opposed to just assuming people are gonna learn from it.

Peter Economy: Yeah, I mean, it’s just like going to school. I mean, you go to school and they have textbooks and they have lesson plans. They have curricula that actually spell out what you’re going to, going to learn. And that’s a guide for learning and. In the, in the same way in a business, you should have some sort of system that tracks the learning in your organization, that, you know, the mistakes that were made, the successes that were achieved, all these different things, hold lessons that people can learn from instead of reinventing the wheel, you know, 20 different times.

Why not mistake make the mistake once. And then everybody learns from that. Um, why, you know, why not?

Andy Paul: Well, the military is very good at this, actually. And I remember reading about this number of years ago is, is yeah. The very disciplined about creating, especially like the army was that when I was reading about this whole lessons learned right after an engagement or a certain action program, whatever, they very sit down very formally in document. The lessons they learned from it. And it becomes part of the, the operations manual going forward is yet we’ve done this. We don’t have to recreate the wheel or we’ve encountered the situation before. These are the lessons we learned and we’re going to teach that to the people in our organization.

Peter Economy: And that’s a great approach. I’m not super familiar with the military, how they work, but, but yeah, that’s a beautiful model for, for learning in an, in any organization. I would say.

Andy Paul: Well, and I think that that what a lot of companies, at least on the sales side these days are sort of assuming is that, well, if we document this, something in our CRM system that, that that’s available, anybody can learn from it. And I think it has to be much more systematic than that. Does that mean it’s a great way to capture the experiences and so on in your CRM system.

But I think as a manager, you should be cognizant of the things you’re learning experiment, experientially. But also your team and, and yeah. Create, create a document online and a shared doc or something that, that enables you to say yes. Yeah. We’ve, we’ve encountered this or you’re coaching a sales person.

Yeah. So it went through a year, John across love, but the side of the other side, other side of the table went through this ant. Yeah. Check out the doc and see what he experienced.

Peter Economy: Yeah. And ideally there there’s some incentive for people to do that. Cause I mean, unfortunately a lot of these docs and I know back when I was in the business world, myself, you know, these, these well-meaning documents that were created ended up getting filed away and no one ever looked at them again.

So there’s gotta be some way to keep it active in front of people and give them an incentive to actually look at it and engage with it instead of just ignoring it.

Andy Paul: Yeah. Well, I think that’s managers have to integrate it into their process. I think that becomes part of it. Right. That’s what happens is sellers input data into systems, and then it’s never looked at again and they know that they never look at it again and they know no one else is looking at it. So what’s the incentive.

But if it’s actually used as a tool, then that can actually become quite effective. I thought it was interesting. You say that. One of the fastest ways to build a learning culture is to fire the top management team.

Peter Economy: Yeah, that’s a little extreme, but it’s true. I mean, uh, unfortunately many of the obstacles to learning and many other things in an organization are right there in that top management team.

Andy Paul: Yeah. Including the reluctance to invest in managers, training managers. Uh, and I think that’s yeah, something. Yeah. Think about when your manager, maybe your first management job coming up is okay. Yeah. Are you part of the solution or part of the problem?

Peter Economy: Right.

Andy Paul: are you being defensive about what you don’t know or being vulnerable about what you don’t know and open to keeping an open mind as you talk about with the key ingredients they’re going out and learning and acquiring the knowledge you need to help improve yourself.

Peter Economy: right. Exactly. Yeah. Definitely.

Andy Paul: So the other part, the learning culture on this one is, is server pet peeve of mine is, is I think learning through experience is fantastic, but uh, most companies are, are really bad about then educating their people about the things that aren’t experience-based, but just new insights, new perspectives, new tasks, new ways of looking at things.

And yeah, it’s like, Yeah, how come we’re so bad at that? I mean, because let’s say I can speak to sales most specifically is, is yeah. Their sales training. Yeah. Some of it’s not most of us not very good, just because it’s not delivered in a way that that is reinforced, integrated into practice. But when we do a bad job of, of sort of this Michael sales education, It’s okay. We’re learning from experience. So that’s how this is gonna be a primary driver for most of us, but there’s so much more, there’s a whole world of books and podcasts and all these other things out there. How do we to encourage people to, to access that? How do we encourage as managers? How do we get people to, to want to learn.

Peter Economy: Yeah, well, it’s, it’s, it’s, that’s a great, great question because it all comes down to motivation. People need to see that as something that’s going to help them sell better in the case of a salesperson, for example, you know, why, why should I take time out of my day? Um, when I could be selling, when I could be out there actually selling, you know, making phone calls out in the sales floor or whatever it might be.

Why should I take any time away from that? Um, And how is this going to actually help me sell more? So you’ve got to make that connection. I mean, I think a sales manager has to make that connection with the salespeople, that by doing these things, by listening to podcasts, Ted talks, I’m reading some of these books that you actually will become a better salesperson.

You actually will sell more. And, and I don’t know how, how. Some organizations structure themselves. But I would say you want to definitely incentivize that in some way, maybe with some sort of. Um, badges or something. So if you accomplish these things, you’ll get some sort of, um, award or reward or something.

So if you, if you actually engage in this curriculum, you actually check off the boxes that you’ve done. This you’ve done that you’ve listened to this podcast, you’ve read this book, whatever the things may be. You’ll get some sort of reward for that. You’ll get some sort of recognition. Um, but they’ve still got to draw the connection between doing that, taking the time to do that and actually selling more or doing more or whatever it may be.

So I think the manager has to make the help make that connection and, and prove it to the salesperson that they’re gonna gain in some way by doing that.

Andy Paul: Okay. And I think part of that is by modeling in their own behavior. Something that, that the, uh, the sellers want to serve aspire to. Right. I mean, if their manager is. Yeah. I’m not actively engaged in learning. They know that. Yeah. They, they see that. I mean, if you, I think managers should spend 10% of their time in their own development, their own personal development.

And if they’re investing that amount of time in it, um, then yeah, people work for them to see that and that we’re going to see it, not only the conversations they have with the manager, but they’re gonna see it actually in the, you know, the actions the manager is taken to learn. To me, that’s the, that is the one of the best ways to motivate people and then give, inspire people to invest in their own development.

Peter Economy: Yeah, definitely. I think, um, you know, certainly every aisle, aisle behavior, um, It begins from, from self motivation, I believe. But when you’ve got someone, when you, when your boss was modeling that behavior, it gives you something to aspire to. It gives you something to look up to. And I think we all want mentors.

We all, in some, obviously some managers act as mentors, some are formal, some are informal, but we all want to have a model. Someone we can, we can say we can look up to and aspire to. And so if our boss is modeling that behavior, if, if there. Doing those sorts of things, reading those books, listening to those podcasts, um, and maybe actually inviting their people to join them.

Uh, maybe, maybe you set aside some time every week, um, half an hour or whatever it might be to actually engage and, and bring your team together. And. Listen to a podcast then, and then interactively walk them through it, you know, start a conversation and see what, what learnings people could, you know, got out of it instead of just sitting back there and, and teaching a class.

I mean, actually get people to be engaged in interacting in it. That could be a very good tool as well. I would think

Andy Paul: Well, I think it is. And it’s the managers sales managers that are doing that are finding that let’s do another point you were writing about, which is a huge mistakes. First time managers make is when they have meetings. Yeah. Tend not to be very productive. And this is a skill you have to learn to be able to run a productive sales meeting and.

Uh, yeah, consuming content collaboratively. Jointly is certainly one way to spend time productively. Especially if you structure lots of lessons and questions around it, whether it’s listening to part of a podcast or reading a chapter of a book or something, because generally what you see with new managers is yeah, they want to yeah.

Too extensive reviews or they want to talk about something in depth with one person that’s not of interest to the other people, or a lot of times sales managers. For first time managers hold their meetings at the wrong time of day. Uh, and if it’s not productive, then the sellers resent it. So this whole idea of having productive meetings is really, it’s actually a big one.

I’ve seen some sales managers, uh, lose their team if you will, because they, the managers, the meetings that held were just unproductive.

Peter Economy: Yeah. Um, unfortunately meetings by nature are unproductive. I mean, there’s so many bad meetings out there and it really turns off the employees and, you know, the more it goes on the worse it gets. I think the statistics, I don’t remember the studies, but something like 67% of all. You know, meetings are a waste of time, something like that.

I mean, it’s, it’s a huge majority of meetings are basically a waste of time. So people gain them. People tune out, people attend them, but they, they wish they were somewhere else. Again, they wish they were selling, you know, they were out on the sales far out on the phone or doing whatever they do to sell.

Instead of sitting in a, another, another meeting, you know, going, talking about stuff that has nothing to do with them selling or them doing their job, whatever their job may be.

Andy Paul: Well, that’s what I think managers at all levels have this obligation to, uh, and sort of the model I use. I consider a meeting like a sales call. Yeah. If I going on a sales call and consuming some of my customers time, I want the meeting to be. Yeah, as long as it needs to be and not a minute longer. So relatively short, it needs to be focused.

And there needs to be a specific deliverable that has value to the people in the meeting. And if you structure your sales calls that way. Then think about structuring your sales meetings, that way for frontline manager. And then you’ll ensure that that either shorter people walk out of there thinking, yeah, I got something out of this, so I’m not going to be distracted necessarily the next time we get together.

And, and imagine that people are calculating sort of a mental ROI on the time they invest in that meeting, just like your customers do when you meet with them.

Peter Economy: Exactly. Yeah. And, and, you know, they are, I mean, people aren’t, people are watching the clock tick by and thinking about all the other things they could be doing at that time. If they’re not benefiting from the discussion in the meeting,

Andy Paul: Yeah. Well, and so is there a last question I thought was a great point you made toward the end of the book is, is. You don’t want frontline managers increasingly off frontline managers, increasingly being the source of a frustration with, with people in the jobs that report to them. That’s why they change jobs frequently.

Gallup talked about that. You mentioned, uh, but Gallup also has just to six, I believe you mentioned the book about what a large fraction of, of workers are just not engaged and, um, yeah. And this is a problem because, you know, if you’re not engaged and especially if you’re in sales, that’s, this is sort of the recipe for mediocre performance is just going to be going through the motions.

And I, and I thought one of the great things you wrote about on there is that the key for managers on this to serve, uh, increased engagement is on their own part is don’t resist change. No, don’t have that open mind. You talked about as well, be open to new perspectives, new ways of doing things. Yeah.

Input from the people that work for you about what you could do better.

Peter Economy: Yeah. I mean, so much of this is attitude. And, you know, we talked about that a little bit before, but you know, when people are open to change, when people are open to new ideas, when people understand that what got them, where they are today may not work for them any longer, they may need to change their, their approach.

Because the world’s changing around them and it’s changing faster than ever. Just relying on what got you to where you are right now. Um, there’s no guarantee that that’s going to work today or tomorrow. So it’s critically important to be open to. New ideas to, to, to a changing world, to your people’s ideas, to inputs from all sorts of different places that maybe you’ve never considered before, because you know whether or not you decide to jump on board, the train it’s gonna, it’s going anyway and it’s going with, or without you.

So you might want to get on board the train

Andy Paul: Well, I think they’re all subtext there too, is that the first temptation is a new manager is to try to control everything. And you’re much better off acknowledging from the beginning that there’s very little, you can control. And, and acknowledging that, and then helping the ways that I said that have value to people and understand that.

Yeah. There’s some things you’re not gonna be able to control and that’s okay.

Peter Economy: Yeah, exactly. Um, that you just can’t control everything and you shouldn’t even try. I think that’s where, what, you know, one place where managers really go wrong is is they, they don’t delegate. Um, work too. There are people they try to do it all themselves. So that’s, that’s one form of control. I know when I was a manager, um, years ago that whenever I had a task, say, my boss said, I need you to come up with a report, some sort of report.

Um, my immediate reaction was, well, should I do it myself? Or should I assign this to one of my employees? And if I do it myself, I know it’s going to be done two or three times faster and I’ll probably be twice as accurate. So. Maybe I’ll just do it myself. Well, what I’ve done is I’ve just burdened myself with more work when I should have, you know, I shouldn’t be trying to control everything.

I shouldn’t be trying to do everything. And then I’ve taken away a possibility of, of developing an employee. I’ve I’ve taken away their ability to learn something new that will benefit them and actually benefit our entire organization and our customers. If they learn this themselves and are able to do this themselves, instead of me doing it for them all the time.

Andy Paul: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Well, good. Well, unfortunately I’m out of time, but, um, yeah. Peter tell people how they can connect with you and learn more about  your book.

Peter Economy: Uh, the best way to connect with me is to go to my website, Peter economy.com and everything’s there. I’ve got a sample on the homepage of my website, there a sample of the book. You can take a look at it and a place to a wander over to Amazon. If you decide you want to buy a copy. So, um, that’s pretty much it.

Andy Paul: And follow you at inc magazine. You’ve written 1500 articles for

Peter Economy: Yeah. More than 1500 articles. Yeah. On inc com I’m all about leadership management and all sorts of other topics too.

Andy Paul: Yeah. And you have one of the great names of all time, Peter economy. So, uh, for business writer. Fantastic.

Peter Economy: it’s, it’s been a real blessing. I’ll tell you that.

Andy Paul: Alright, Peter, thank you very much. And I’ll look forward to doing this again.

Peter Economy: Thanks. Sandy had a blast.

Andy Paul: Yeah.