Joining me on this episode are Robert Mallon and Bill Watkins. They are the Founders of the Rusty Lion Academy. Among the many topics that Robert, Bill, and I discuss are, their experiences that brought them to coaching, how physical neglect leads to burnout, and how procrastination and hesitation block success (and how to power through these negative behaviors.)
What’s your most powerful sales attribute?
Bill: Asking for the sale.
Robert: After adding value, our close — do you want help, or do you just want to keep going it alone?
Who is your sales role model?
Bill: Zig Ziglar, my former boss Baxter Stevens, and Billy Graham.
Robert: Two people at a two-week sales training in 1996 who gave me outstanding material that I studied for several years.
What’s one book that every salesperson should read?
Bill: Essentialism, by Greg McKeown, and The One Thing, by
Robert: How I Raised Myself from Failure to Success in Selling, by Frank Bettger.
What music is on your playlist right now?
Robert: “Dust Bowl” and “Slow Gin,” by Joe Bonamassa, “Damn Good” by David Lee Roth, “Pride and Joy,” by Stevie Ray Vaughan, “Dreams,” by the Allman Brothers Band
Bill: Very loud Reggae, the entire Marley family, Peter Tosh, Steel Pulse, and Travel Seeds.
ANDY PAUL: It’s time to accelerate. Hi, I’m your host, Andy Paul. Join me as I host conversations with the leading experts in sales, marketing, sales automation, sales process, leadership management, training, coaching, any resource that I believe to help you accelerate the growth of your sales, your business, and most importantly, you. Hello and welcome to Accelerate. I am excited to talk with my guests. This is actually the first time we’ve done two guests on the same show. Joining me are Robert Malin and Bill Watkins. They are the founders of the Rusty Lion Academy. Gentlemen, welcome to Accelerate.
ROBERT MALLON: Thank you so much, Andy. We’re glad to be on. All right.
AP: Well, so maybe take turns Robert and Bill. Take a minute, introduce yourselves, and give us a little background about you.
RM: Why don’t you go first, buddy.
BILL WATKINS: Well, I think I’ll introduce my buddy Robert.
AP: Well, there you go.
BW: How about that? Robert’s been my best friend for decades. For the first 27 years of his life, he was a corporate executive in the restaurant and software industries. Then I remember this time in our friendship when, in 2002, he hired a coach and he completely shifted gears. In short order, he became a professional speaker, business coach, and business mentor. He’s been doing that ever since 2002. He’s got a lot of systems and tools and he finally lined up his gifts with his passion. I’ve been watching him knock it out of the park ever since. He married Sandy. They’ve got five wonderful children, and they have the most precious granddaughter on the planet.
AP: Yeah, I was asking him earlier why he wasn’t living where you are and out in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Good reason with all family being located close to him.
BW: Absolutely makes sense to me too.
RM: Bill and I have been best friends now for at least a couple of decades. He’s a West Point graduate, he actually graduated in the top 2% of his class which he would not tell you, but I’ll tell you because I know it. He was a decorated army officer, a world class athlete, and we could spend the whole podcast talking about that. He’s done a lot of stuff, from being a corporate executive and he actually owned some manufacturing businesses that he started in his garage and actually took them up to a eight figure valuation when he actually sold them. He’s married to Donna, one of my wife’s best friends, and they live up in Jackson, Wyoming, and his hobbies are anything outdoors. He’s outside. I’d say seriously. I mean, he’s got another place down in Florida, but he’s outside every single solitary day when it’s not raining, and sometimes even then. He’s got two grown kids, a son and a daughter, and a very special son in law too. So a good family man.
AP: Excellent, excellent. So, we have to talk a little bit about your athletic achievements. You are a national bicycling champion in the Masters division not that long ago.
BW: Well, I had two separate periods of competition. So I began riding and racing at West Point on their cycling team in 1974 or 1975. I was nominated to the national team and then the Olympic development team. We boycotted the 80 Olympics. I was an officer then. Jimmy Carter boycotted. So I stayed on another four years heading towards the 84 Olympics. After the 84 Olympics, I retired and didn’t pick up a bike until 2008. I wanted to make a comeback and win a national championship or a world championship. I wanted to get on the podium of a professional race and accomplish those. After I won the nationals in 2011, I immediately retired again. I do ride my bike still. I retired from competition, but I didn’t retire completely from my bike. I still ride just for fun and for the social aspect.
RM: One time, he rode over 400 miles.
AP: I feel suitably humbled. You don’t lose that competitive bone.
RM: Well, the way that I look at it is this. I think there’s a direct correlation between athletics at any level and business, sales in particular. You’re competing to win, you’re winning the customer, and you’re winning the order. That in a certain way is your podium, and you’re competing against other salespeople and yourself. Whether you’re an athlete or not or a professional competitor or not, it doesn’t matter. You’re training yourself that when the competition is over or the training is over and you show up at work, you’re a better sales competitor in your craft than you were two training sessions before. You don’t have to be an athlete to to be a great sales professional, but I think there is a correlation if you are.
AP: Okay. Well, let’s talk about Rusty Lion Academy. So tell us what you do and tell us what you do.
BW: I think what we do and what Robert and I are committed to in our life is helping men. We focus on a male audience between the ages of 30 and 49. 80% of our clients are business owners, 20% are C suite execs. Most are married, most have kids. The end point of what we do now is that our audience builds super successful companies and careers, and they get home for dinner on time. They get to their daughter’s midweek recital. They get to that early Saturday morning game because they’re not trapped at work. We give guys clarity, control, and the freedom that they deeply desire. Your audience right now is working like crazy to get that customer, get that order, get that client, and oftentimes what we find is there’s a lot of frenzy and chaos, and our company is dedicated to relieving that, to ending that, to arming that man with tools. 20% of what we do is tools, 80% is mindset. We reset the mindset of our leaders, our professionals, our salespeople, all so they’re set up for success.
AP: So why men only?
BW: I was going to bring that up because I was just seeing half of your audience go “Who do they think they are?”
RM: We made a decision early on. We’ve coached women and we absolutely love women. We, you know, we’re both married and we both have daughters, and I’ve got a granddaughter and so it’s not that we don’t like them. But one of our things early on when we started really developing the Academy was we wanted to be world class, not half something. We decided that in the way that we were looking at it, if we were 95% that was not world class. When we started thinking about who we would be coaching, we realized we know men, we’ve been men, we’ve been 30 to 49 year old men, we’ve gone all the way through that. I’ve watched my wife give birth many times, but I’ve never done it. I can’t really tell you what it feels like. I can tell you it looks like it hurts pretty bad, you know. We go really, really deep into the lives of our clients – not just their business life, but also their personal lives too. And we just did not feel like we could give world class coaching to women, because we’ve not experienced that. Bill, do you have anything to add to that?
BW: Yeah, well, Andy, when we told our wives of this decision they said, “Well, you know what? That’s one of the smartest things you’ve ever done, because no matter how many books you read, you still don’t get us.”
AP: Well, I think there’s some value in that. Even in the sales business, there’s a thriving organization run by women sales pros that are friends of mine. It’s a unique experience that a lot of women have coming up in the profession that, quite honestly, men don’t experience. It’s hard to empathize with all the challenges and barriers that they have put in their way that we don’t.
RM: But for the women who are listening right now, we want your men because we will make them awesome and you will like them a whole lot.
AP: Yeah, okay. All right. Well, let’s jump right into it then. So one of the topics so I’m talking about is changing habits and you guys have written a lot about this. One fundamental habit he said that people need to have is recharging their batteries. I thought we’d start there because it’s unusual to talk about a rest and relaxation habit as opposed to a work habit. Talk about the importance of that.
BW: Well, I’m going to send this pitch to Robert. He’s going to hit it out of the park because it’s one of the things that we are talking about every darn day. We had a new client yesterday and we found out the guy sleeps between four and six hours a night and he’s been doing it for years. We’s very successful, but he’s challenged right? Well, and
RM: He’s very successful in a way. It’s not like he’s got bags under his eyes, or anything like that. When it comes to recharging the batteries, there are really three different things we need to talk about, and I’m going to kind of go from order of importance. I think number one is sleep. Food is number two, and then exercise is number three, but you need a real good balance of that. It’s been scientifically proven that people need sleep and they need seven and a half to eight hours of sleep every night. People think that they’re not living at full capacity, you know, if they’re sleeping that much, but biologically, you just can’t do it. Sleep cycles are one and a half hours long. There’s several different stages you go into. If you started a circle, at the very top is what’s called REM sleep. That’s your deepest, deepest sleep. So when you’re in that part of it, like I could walk up to you and almost shaken you wouldn’t wake up. Then you go back down into a very, very light sleep and then you go back. Based on the fact that it’s an hour and a half long, you need to sleep five or maybe six sleep cycles per night. So five would be five times 1.5 which gives you 7 and a half hours. If you sleep eight hours, you’re going back into deeper sleep when you wake up. So if you wake up right at seven and a half hours, you’re at your lightest part of sleep, and you wake up and you feel refreshed. But if you wait until eight hours, or eight hours and 15 minutes or something, you’re actually in deep, deep sleep, and you wake up and you don’t feel good. It actually affects you almost all day long. So worst case scenario for sleep cycles would be exactly six hours. So if you’re coming back from a trip and you’ve just got a short amount of time, don’t do six and a half hours, stop it at six, because that’s going to stop you at the right time. But preferably try to keep every night’s sleep at seven and a half hours. The key to that would be don’t think about what time you want to get up. Make sure that you go to bed at the right time so that you get the seven and a half hours and then do it from there. I’m always looking at when am I going to bed, not what time do I need to get up if that makes sense?
AP: When you look at the three elements of rest, food, and exercise those are the elements of a training regime if you’re training for an event so it’s really like training for life. I mean, you need to have these three components: you need to be well rested, you need to eat well, and you need to exercise and people on the show are probably absolutely tired of me talking about exercise but it’s okay.
RM: If you want to be a high performer, you’ve got to do all three of those but the interesting thing is exercise is probably the least although you need to do it, but the sleep part and the food part you got to get good at.
BW: Let’s say that your audience has athletes in it, why would they do something on the athletic side of their life that they don’t do on the life side of their life? I just do not get that. We have, you know, executives and business owners that eat crap food, they sleep the handful of hours, they sleep poorly when they do sleep, they don’t have the science of sleep down. They ignore their fun and recreation so they’re work work work all the time and there’s nothing filling up their tank, they think that they’re bringing their best game to their work. I just do not get that and we see it all the time. Now here’s the problem. The media, Huffington Post TV, Fast Company magazine, Inc Forbes fortune, all these magazines, you know, what we read about is all the wins. It’s like this person is bulletproof. I mean, we even read about people who certainly brag that they they’ve not slept for more than two hours a night because they get so much done. I think that’s a pile of crap. We’re surrounded by our peers doing that. Our badge of courage is saying, “Oh, I haven’t taken a vacation in three years.” Mary says, “Oh, I’ve got so much going on at home with my kids and my husband and my work that, you know, I figured out how to get by in three hours. I’m very efficient.” Oh, please, but we’re surrounded by that and those people are held up as our models. So we end up thinking that we’re an aberration when we jump into that lifestyle with the lack of exercise, lack of nutrition, lack of sleep, lack of fun and all that sort of stuff. We think we’re broken and that we just need to stay at it longer, try a new habit, whatever, because we’re going to end up to be like them very soon. You’re not. You’re on a downward spiral, you’re in the plane and it’s spinning down towards Earth and you’re going to crash. This is not the way to peak performance.
AP: Yeah, I agree. You guys talk a lot about work life balance, but the other term we hear more and more of is “work-life integration.” So it seems to me that it’s more of a task of work-life integration as opposed to balance, because I think of my own self and I’m on vacation quite a lot, actually. When I go on vacation, though, I also have a business that maybe requires a couple of hours a day. That’s okay. I don’t mind working a couple of hours a day on vacation because I want to have fun the rest of the day.
BW: There you go. You know, Andy, you’re totally right. When we write about it, we call it work-life balance. That’s only because we’re throwing the right bait at the fish. When our reader pops in, they will learn shortly enough that we don’t believe in work life balance. There is no work life balance, there is no way to find the sweet spot. It’s always an ebb and a flow. It’s an integration of our work and our life. For example, you’re going on vacation, Andy, and you are going to not be doing a lot of things that you would be doing if you had eight hours of work in front of you, and that’s fine. So during that time, you’re going to work less and you’re going to vacation more, then you’re going to come back you’re going to vacation way less and you’re going to work a lot more. How about if somebody has a baby in the family? What happens for the first six weeks, six months? Baby, baby, baby. Guess what’s not happening? Maybe sleeping? But generally speaking, my work is going to ebb a little bit, because I’m having a baby. I’m going to flow in the family side of my life for a short time. So you’re right. We sell work-life balance because that’s what everybody wants to hear. We give work-life integration because that’s what everybody needs.
RM: There’s a funny story there. About a year and a half ago or so we were working with this guy. He’s owns a manufacturing company, basically. But anyway, so we’re going along with them. This was in April, and we’re talking about goals for the next quarter and all and we’ve spent like maybe 30-45 minutes really digging deep with them. We think we’ve got everything honed out and he says, “Oh, yeah, by the way, on May 19 we’re adopting our first child.” Bill and I are like, “Hold the phone!” He hadn’t said one word about that the whole time that we’re talking, and we’re like “Scratch everything we just talked about here. You don’t understand what’s getting ready to happen..” So we pulled back the integration for that first four months from it so that he could be with his wife and his newborn and experience and really rock it out with that, but he didn’t get the integration part. He just thought, “Well, yeah, we got new kids, so it’s good.”
BW: That’s what men do.
AP: So let’s talk about another habit in another article to read about beating procrastination because from a sales standpoint, this is a killer that happens and it’s a habit that needs to be changed. You know, one of the key things you guys know about is how call reluctance is just another form of procrastination. So you’re talking about three different procrastination cycles – a fear-based, fatigue-based and perfectionist-based. I want to sort of go through those because I think it’s valuable for people to hear about that. So let’s start with fear-based. When you’re afraid of doing something you procrastinated it really becomes a self-reinforcing habit.
BW: I think what happens is that we read all these stories about people. All we read about is success. I’m surrounded by very successful entrepreneurs, business owners, investors and all that, but if you talk to them, they say, “Yep, buddy. I was an overnight success and it only took me 30 years.” So I think when you dive deep into their stories, they will pull the curtain back and they’ll say, “Hey, listen, you want to hear about my 10 failures before I hit my first home run?” A lot of people have confidence, but few people have ego. All we read about is the home run. This gives us a false impression that we should be hitting success right out of the box. We should pick up the phone, we should write an email, and we should get the order. We should say that this is a process. It’s a process for me to grow. It’s a process to engage. When I go fly fishing, I might throw out 10 different flies in 15 different places before I get a bite on my line. Now when I go out with a guide, he throws the fly to the right place, he catches a trout just like that. It took him 25 years to gain the skill to do that though. I think the analogy is very much the same. We procrastinate a lot of times because we have the illusion that failure is not an option. It’s totally an option.
AP: Fail fast. It’s all right.
BW: Ah, fail fast. But don’t necessarily throw a party and say, “We’re so great because we failed all the time.” When pro teams look at the game films, they’re not necessarily celebrating what they did wrong. They’re learning from it. I think we should change our mindset and go, “Yeah, failure is an option. It happens. I’ll learn from it. I’ll pivot. I’ll grow. I’ll get better.” Then we can move forward and pick up the phone. We don’t have call reluctance. We don’t have email reluctance. Go for it.
AP: Well it’s just that you have to embrace the discomfort and really envision what’s the worst thing that can happen if somebody says no.
RM: That’s two keys right there. There’s an old saying by Cortez that say, “Burn the ships.” When fear is holding you back or making you procrastinate, you’ve not burned the ships yet. So there’s a saying and I won’t give you the whole thing, but it’s like “Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back always ineffectiveness.” Once you burn the ships, you actually then can go forward but you’ve got to take that time and you’ve got to burn it. I had a guy today on a podcast who was talking about the worst thing that ever happened him and he described the whole situation. I said, “If you could put all of that lesson into one sentence, what would it be? He said, “You know what? I got out of the driver’s seat and I got into the passenger seat. “That’s the first time I’ve ever done that in my life, but I didn’t know what to do. I was in fear, so I decided to get out of the driver’s seat. If I was to give advice to the lions, it would be always stay in the driver’s seat, and don’t go over. The other would be to embrace the worst case scenario. If you can live with the worst case scenario, and really embrace it, you’ll be okay. You’ll be alright. It’s probably going to be better than that, at least a little bit, if not a whole heck of a lot.” Try to figure out what the worst thing that could possibly happen is, and then just ask yourself, “If it does, what can I do?” I can do anything for 20 minutes. So any of your salespeople have to pick up the phone and make phone calls. I’ve done that when I was software. I did a lot of sales and I had to pick up the phone and, you know, there’s a lot of hesitancy there. I would set a timer for 20 minutes and then hit start, and then just start dialing. You can shovel poop for 20 minutes. You might not like the smell, but you can do it if you’ve got to. Here’s what happens. Within one minute, you will totally forget that that timer is going. Within 10 minutes, you’re into what you’re doing. Within 20 minutes, when the timer goes off, you’re usually in the middle of a conversation that’s going really well with somebody and you turn it off, and you just keep on going. But the key to it, Andy, is that if you hate what you’re doing at 20 minutes, stop, and then do it again tomorrow. Give yourself permission to actually say to yourself, “Ah, man, I did 20 minutes which is good for me, as opposed to nothing, you know?” So it’s really just a mental mindset that you can actually have. I can do anything for 20 minutes and go for it.
AP: Yeah, and you guys stress, right? I mean, one of the big things with procrastination is that we become so addicted to comfort. Even though it does not give us a satisfactory outcome, we choose comfort over despair, even though discomfort is going to bring us closer to our goals.
BW: Yeah, but it’s the professionals that that that step forward into the unknown, knowing that failure is an option. I’ll recover, it won’t be catastrophic. I won’t die, everything will be fine – eventually. Maybe it’ll be a little traumatic for a little while. Those are the people that step forward, and they’re the game changers of the world. Those are the people that your audience want to be. Right.
AP: Yeah, absolutely.
BW: I was just writing an article and talking about how watching reality TV is not learning the reality. I can watch reality TV about surviving in the wilderness of Alaska, but until I get out into the wilderness, I don’t know how to survive and do it myself. A lot of us just sit in our chair, and read magazines and newspapers and all that about how to be great professionals and change the world and what not, and we think – to a certain extent – that that’s okay.
AP: Yeah, I agree. Okay, we go into the last segment of my show here. I’ve got some standard questions I asked all my guests. I’ll pose the first question once and you can either answer it together or separately. You’ve just been hired as vice president of sales by a company whose sales have stalled out, and the CEO and the board are anxious to get things back on track. So what two things would you do your first week on the job that could have the biggest impact?
RM: I’m going to go with one that just came to mind. Here’s what I’d do. I would sit down with every salesperson. Instead of talking to them about sales, I would talk to them about them and I would take about 30 minutes. I would take three of those 30 minutes in order to introduce myself to them. Then I would take 27 minutes and I would find out all about them. I would write down the answers that they gave to me – what their hobbies are, what their home life is like what their desires are for the future and everything because they’re going to forget that you wrote that down. Then I would memorize that stuff over the next several weeks. But what I want to do is I want to get them on my team. I would also be very humble, I’d be real humble. I’d ask them to help me to get on board and show me the ropes as opposed to me telling them what to do.
AP: Okay, good
BW: Oftentimes there’s a disconnect in in sales success and where sales organizations and salespeople are right now, which is that we don’t truly understand our customer. We haven’t defined that customer. What I would do is I would get my salespeople together and I would say, “You know what, I want to write the story of our customer today. I want to write their story. I want to know where they live, how they live, what they struggle with, what they struggle with outside of work, what they struggle with at work, their age, etc.” Then I want to connect, what they’re looking for or what they’re struggling with and what we offer. I want to write their autobiography, how they would write their story if we ask them to. Then I want to totally understand their struggle and the solution that we provide. I believe too many people, too many sales organizations, and too many salespeople understand their customer at the surface level. We are talking in ways that are not resonating with the deepest pain or the biggest struggle of our customer and therefore our solution is overlooked.
AP: Okay, great answer. So now I have some rapid-fire questions and you can give me one word answers or elaborate, and I’ll just throw it out there and you can each answer this question. So when you personally are out selling your services, what’s your most powerful sales attribute?
RM: Asking for the sale. I would think we do definitely ask for the sale and we somewhat do an assumptive close and I know you know what that means. We go into the sales meeting already thinking that they bought, so we assume it into existence.
BW: We’re fans of Gary Vaynerchuk’s Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook. By closing the sale, we just ask a man, “Dude, do you want help? Or do you want to keep going it alone?” I mean, that’s our close. But to that question, we have delivered so much value to that man, that leader, that professional, that he truly understands that we have his best interests at heart, that we truly deeply care, that we are authentic, we’re passionate, and we’re capable. If he’s at a place in his life where finally he says, “Yeah, I do want some help.” It’s easy. It’s totally easy. All we’ve got to do is ask and if he says no, we use the assumptive close. Like we do believe that if a man has gone through our value chain, and he’s at the point where we ask him that question, 80%-90% of time, he’s going to say yes. But if he says no, we’re going to love that guy and cheer for him, support him, encourage him, and we totally get it. Listen, Robert and I turned down a lot of valuable help back in our day, so we totally understand that mindset. I think when you put those two together, we’re so low pressure that sometimes we wonder whether we should change it. We don’t though, we just keep doing what we’re doing.
So next question: Who’s your sales role model?
BW: I’ve loved Zig Ziglar and a boss I had named Baxter Stevens. When someone asks me how we should close, though – and I’m going to say this, and then I’m going to give you a disclaimer. It’s Billy Graham. Robert and I have our own personal faith. We’re not a faith-based organization, we don’t, you know, seek to coach certain types of faiths or whatever. When I say Billy Graham, here’s what I mean by that. Billy was deeply passionate, he deeply cared, and he tried everything to get people to make the decision that he felt was important in their life. He became very, very good at it obviously, truly one of the reasons why he became so famous and so loved is because he loved the people that were in his audiences, and he truly cared deeply for them. So I think if I was to set a role model and when I describe to our team how badly Robert and I want to help transform the lives of a million men before he and I are going to stop doing this thing, it’s that.
AP: All right, Robert?
RM: There were two people and I don’t know the names. In 1996, I went to a two week sales training thing when I first went into software. I can remember these people, and it was done by Emory University, but the material they gave me was outstanding. What I did was I became a student of that material, and over the next several years, I studied it. I really, really studied it.
AP: Let me ask you a question. What’s one book you’d recommend every salesperson read?
BW: I would recommend Essentialism by Greg McKeown. So Greg is a friend of ours, he’s been on our podcast, and Essentialism revolves around sifting down the many, many things in their high-velocity, high-impact life into the essential priorities. Gary Keller and Greg McCann provide the assets for a sales professional to look at everything going on in their world. Every client, every deal, every offer all the things they got to go on, and continuously pick those things that bring the most impact and make everything faster, better, and more successful.
RM: I’m not sure if it’s even still in print, but my recommendation is How I Raised Myself from Failure to Success by Frank Bettger. It seems like a million years ago when I read that book. I mean, it’s got to be at least 25 to maybe 30 years ago. I love that book.
AP: Good answers. All right, last question. What music is on your playlists these days?
RM: I think that would be more directed towards me though.
BW: I know, every time we start a meeting, Robert comes in with this crazy music.
RM: Joe Bonamassa. If you want to listen to a couple more great ones from him,
“Dustbowl and Slow Gin” are awesome.
AP: All right.
BW: I’m currently jamming to very loud reggae, so I have the entire Marley family. Peter Tosh, Steel Pulse, a band called Travel Seeds. Robert has to put it up with my reggae, I put up with his 70s rock.
AP: All right guys, good stuff. So, thanks for being on the show. Tell folks how they can get in contact with you.
BW: Well, there’s two ways to get in contact with us. One is through our free membership site, rustylionacademy.com. Right on the homepage, you can join the Lions’ Den and get free access to our weekly content, but you also get free access to about 15 hours of some of our best training videos and resources. Robert and I just finished the other way right before this podcast. We do a weekly live training about basically how to get it all – how to win at work and win at home and win at life all at the same time. It’s rustylionacademy/livetraining. You get us for 60 minutes. You give us 60 minutes, and we’ll give you a changed life.
AP: All right, excellent. Well, good. Well, thanks for being on the show today. Remember, friends, thanks for listening today and make it a part of your day every day to deliberately learn something new to help you accelerate your success. An easy way to do that is to make this podcast accelerate part of your daily routine, whether you listen to it during your commute, in the gym, or as part of your morning sales meeting. That way you won’t miss any of my conversations with top business experts like my guests today, Robert Mallon and Bill Watkins, who shared their expertise on how to accelerate the growth of your business. So thanks for joining me. Until next time, this is Andy Paul. Good selling everyone. Thanks for listening to the show. If you liked what you heard and want to make sure you don’t miss any upcoming episodes, please subscribe to this podcast on iTunes or stitcher.com. For more information about today’s guests, visit my website at andypaul.com.